how to cut thin wall pvc pipe

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Thin flat discs are super effective with cutting PVC, cast iron, and steel. This isn't how a tube cutter was designed to be use so work slowly and carefully, it's easy to slice a finger. Ok, onward. � ��}�v�8��{���n�юc�Q|�ى�x����HHbL�*�U�ֺ�ROw���)�K�� *JR���]2 b� 6���������� �v�7��Ws�ۮ���5�aAP�]��5��`��2�z�99����[�M]��5� ��J%��+vy� �������V��txP�������c���s�Z��if���z� 7. If you fully engage the trigger, the saw can get away from you. Place the point you want to cut on the blade in the jaws of the pipe cutter, then squeeze the handles together and rotate the cutter around the pipe. A hacksaw will even help you figure out how to solder copper pipe by yourself. Before you begin cutting, go out and buy several blades specific to PVC and plastic. This way, you remove the plastic burrs both on the inside and outside of the pipe. Anytime you are working with an electric powered saw, you should minimize the risk of the material moving. Just make sure you line up the blade of the hacksaw on your measurement line and cut straight. What I did was use a … 1/2-in x 10-ft 315-PSI SDR 13.5 White SDR 13.5 PVC Pipe. Warning: Never use plastic pipe fittings and pipe with compressed air or gas. PVC Schedule 40 Foam Core pipe is for drain, PVC Schedule 40 Foam Core pipe is for drain, waste and vent purposes only. Moreover, the cuts are squared off, so there is no need to file or grind down an uneven edge. Kohler Elliston Toilet Review: Is This the Best Throne for You? Cut off an inch of of the thin-wall PVC tube. This is one of those questions we as plumbers take for granted. Hey Keith, thanks for the rundown. Learning how to cut PVC pipe will teach you that a simple hacksaw does a great job cutting PVC. PVC waste and vent piping for kitchens, lavatories, and laundry tubs can be all be handled with this tool in most instances. When people run into problems cutting PVC pipe, it’s usually not while cutting smaller size pipe. Therefore, even though you’re careful, you can still experience deviations. Item #23987. After cutting the plastic make sure you de-burr inside & out. When plumbers get a chop saw out on a job site, they feel like heaven. Compare; Find My Store. Schedule 10 thin wall PVC pipe is typically rated at 200 psi, in contrast to the 400 psi rating of schedule 40 PVC pipe. Therefore, this is a brand name synonymous with the reciprocating saw. When you go to glue, prime both the fitting & the end of the pipe twice. The price shown is price per foot and is for short sections of pipe. Best for smaller diameter PVC pipe, such as 1/2” and 3/4” The rotating pipe cutter uses a blade that clamps down onto the edge of the pipe and you can rotate it to cut deeper into the pipe. Making sure the cut is straight, continue to rotate until you cut through the pipe. However, the margin for error grows quite a bit in this case. As long as you have a long enough blade and some skills, you can cut up to 8” PVC pipe with a reciprocating saw. Photo: istockphoto.com. ���������u=�7a�+�b"U���]˻.�m������o�v���Yܿ0=�e�뷎mr7��x��ϱ�V����RE7X����^ӗ��sե�>X�T�qq��>�-�}^oE.u!Ǎ�p��]�s�f�r3�{���b�f��~�oz����`�C�Y��h2���E�Ɉ� UQ�X9?ϗ}F>�`�݅��aq��@~ĖT� ��U�z���鵴t?�X:m���9�xy�~���β��Ezwf��cP��J������7[}���bq�9΢��]��06�S�3s�oG]�B7�F��F�S;v U��g[Z�۫��a��p=o0x[�&�y�7Z��Cz��Ü���>�0]��u��e=r-X.��ѓ���k� PVC Sch. 146. ALL CUT THINWALL PVC PIPE IS NON-CANCELABLE and NON-RETURNABLE, so be sure you are ordering the size and type of pipe you want. Then wipe the glue off of the joint with a rag. You can still use a hacksaw on larger diameter pipes if this is the only tool you have for learning how to cut PVC. 30 Thin-Wall is lightweight, non-toxic. Not only is it the best way to cut PVC, but you can also cut cast iron, copper, steel, etc. Then, clamp the autocut tool onto the pipe exactly where you want it cut and make sure it’s tight so it won’t slide off or wiggle. The items available here are considered to be the best domestic containers and are widely used. Connect to unthreaded female socket-connect fittings using a PVC primer and cement (also known as solvent weld). Before you begin your cut, make sure you have the pipe anchored in a tripod vise for example. This website uses cookies to ensure you get the best experience on our website. So, how to cut PVC pipe? Ok, onward. The great thing about working with PVC is that it is a very forgiving material. Find My Store. for pricing and availability. Note: All "cut to length" pipe is NOT CANCELLABLE and NOT RETURNABLE. The word Sawzall is Milwaukee’s name for a reciprocating saw. The one I love is the Ridgid RC-237. If you are looking for something with a slightly higher PSI capacity, take a look at the Class 125 thin wall PVC pipe. Orders with any piece over 4' long may have a $10 oversize charge added to your order. Best Bio Bidet for You: Finding the Perfect Machine to Get You Clean. This makes the inner diameter big enough to accept other PVC pipe sizes inside of it. Afterward, place the blade guide tight up against the pipe and gently squeeze the trigger to start the cut. Depending on the type of plastic you need to cut through, use a fine-toothed saw, a hacksaw, or a non-melting table saw blade. This is most certainly a homeowner-plumbing hack. Bring your arm back and forth in a straight motion. 938 color thin wall pvc pipe products are offered for sale by suppliers on Alibaba.com, of which plastic tubes accounts for 11%, pipe fittings accounts for 1%. Charlotte Pipe 450-PSI Schedule 40 White PVC Pipe. PVC Sch. It will depend on the rest of your order. Charlotte Pipe 3/4-in x 20-ft White PVC Pipe. If you are building a project that is creating rectangles and squares, or if you want it to hold together really well with cement. Your email address will not be published. Rigid pipe can be cut with such PVC pipe and tube cutters as hacksaws, power miter saws and scissor-type cutters, but ratchet-style cutters tend to strike an effective balance of affordability, flexibility and ease of use.. With a hacksaw, slowly draw the blade back and forth, making sure that the cut is straight.Reduce speed near completion to provide a clean cut at the end. It is used in gravity fed waste elimination systems. There is no rusting or corroding offering years of trouble-free service. We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. Put, glue inside the fitting first, then the end of the pipe. Tradesmen use the word Sawzall like Kleenex. Thin wall pipe (normally SCH 10 pipe) sold for standard plumbing purposes. Whenever you use a saw or grinder bit to cut PVC, you must run your finger or a cloth along the edge of the cut. The pencil grinder is a specific tool. Holding a handle in each hand, pull the string tight and use a back and forth sawing motion to cut through the pipe. It is for Non-Pressure systems where temperatures will not exceed 140°F. It’s like a hot knife through butter. A hacksaw blade bends as you move it. It works but only in a pinch and only at desperate times. This will give you a sharper cut and, more importantly, keep you safe. Dig a hole around the pipe large enough to slip a piece of thin nylon string under the pipe. However, it’s asked about quite often. This keeps the piping in place and lessens the chance of the pipe moving. Put the fitting on, give it a slight turn the back to the orginal point you started at. Compare; Multiple Sizes. We stock 1/2" thru 12" thinwall PVC pipe by the foot in many different grades of thinwall pipe. Thinwall Furniture Grade PVC pipe maintains the same outside diameter of the same PVC pipe size, but has a larger bore, or opening, inside of the pipe. All thinwall clear PVC pipes have a line of printing along one side. If you have to use a hacksaw or sawzall and you find the cut isn’t exactly square, you can always use a heavy-duty file to file down the edge that needs adjusting. When I checked with a micrometer, I found the deformation. theplumbinginfo.com is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. This way, you can complete any project using both small and large diameter PVC pipe. A wide variety of color thin wall pvc pipe options are available to you, such as pvc, pe, and pp. It is used in gravity fed waste elimination systems. If you are looking for short sections of thinwall PVC Pipe by the foot, we can help. Tradesmen use the word Sawzall like Kleenex. by The Plumbing Info Team | How To | 2 comments. The teeth are more course, and you get a much quicker cut. How to Cut PVC Pipe Square To mark a continuous straight line around a pipe (or other cylinder) in order to make a square cut, wrap a large piece of square paper around it so that the edges line up. Are you currently on Facebook? PVC Schedule 30 Thin-Wall Pipe & Fittings. Item #23970. Internal pipe cutters are pretty cool. BUT, they do not cut a straight 90 degree cutoff. If you’re going to be working with PVC quite a bit, this tool is absolutely worth the investment. PVC Duct Pipe Specs and Dims (cut sheet in pdf) MADE IN THE USA: Cut PVC duct pipes or hoses are non-cancelable and non-returnable so please be sure you are ordering the correct size and length.. Gray Nominal 6” duct pipe Custom Length BTF LIMITED STOCK. That is why the reading 90 degrees around the pipe wasn't lower. This tool does not only work well, but it also cuts pipes of up to 2” diameter diligently. I decided to use PVC Pipe. The cutter is actually a bit smaller that fits in a ½” drill. If you used 200 psi pipe I believe you're in good shape, but if you used sprinkler pipe I suspect it will be unsatisfactory for the constant pressure a normal plumbing system is under (say 50 psi or so). After that, use a medium body glue, brush the glue on both the end & inside the fitting just once. ���҉�9@K V{_��`;�[�P��`�����K;U�IM�P�"a,��Ӈa��/. So, how to cut PVC pipe? Therefore, this is a brand name synonymous with the reciprocating saw. for pricing and availability. Mark the pipe and use a miter box to ensure a clean, straight cut. outside diameter poly (vinyl chloride) (PVC) plastic drain, waste, and vent pipe and fittings Scope: The requirements of this specification are intended to provide pipe and fittings suitable for drainage of sewage and certain other liquid waste. Required fields are marked *. Bob Vila Radio: How to Cut PVC Pipe Skip the costly specialized tool and achieve the same results—straight, clean cuts through large-diameter PVC pipe—with a couple … This allows you to work on both small diameter water piping and larger diameter waste and vent piping. �B�������6� 2��@�f� ?�`twvv�- �)L�E�>?�Y��R��P�D�3X_�{�V`�lK��Z��'1cv�!Vɜ��PWߌ�b�Z�^�v�|v�m�WT�;�z@��m(��� ��BL��Ո#��R�+�k�r���9!w�yV6�8\lv���EY��L%/F�eDF`X���pm�^据`�E���a%��d�4�_An N0r x�aH?� ,:"]c>�|X�>iO��n��� ���t��\�hM���E*s�S�q�/[0�~O�$�vB�}`腠c���5�V��ܪ͔3��d r��4�$��bP-�$&�аb�A2�G\7��}X*��\>��[�EfGp�������Z)� ����%��L�=�&����g*�6|�^Ϧ̄�L�^�UI�n�S�� BI���;��\��T�9E^�X��� �k)�������c�b�]B�\ve�Y��E`�ю'ì��� l��[��&�H�������b]Va�2�Ŏ���]�l���$�aS5۸p�oy��( ���z������ޱ-�ޚ~e�{��{/���zIͣ��h�\)^N�mxK+3���u HVp�$P0N,� You don’t want the glue on you. ASTM D 2949: Specifications for 3.25-in. 34. Thinwall pipe is best used for irrigation, drainage, waste, gray water and other uses where there is little to no pressure. This way, you’ll be through the pipe in a couple passes. If you are using blades meant for metal, they will be smaller because the material is harder. These thin wall plastic pipes can be ordered in bulk at 10 feet per tube or at a custom length. They consist of a circle or a star pattern piece of metal that has blades at an edge. Use a dust mask to protect yourself from inhaling any particles. Afterward, place the blade guide tight up against the pipe and gently squeeze the trigger to start … On the other hand, they are pretty damn crude. Ratchet the top handle up and down until the blade slices through the pipe. Once again, measure twice cut once, mark your pipe where you want to make the cut. With my 39 years as a industrial & commericial Journeyman Pipefitter under my belt, what I have used to cut ABS, PVC & CPVC plastic pipe, is a sawzall, plastic pipe hand saw & what works best is either a miter saw or a chop saw with a 18 tooth rip blade in it. Cut Class 100 thin wall PVC pipe is non-cancelable and non-returnable so please be sure you are ordering the correct size and length. Compare; Multiple Options. Pipe meets ASTM D2729 specifications and testing requirements for material quality. The internal cutters shown here have flat caps that are tightened to adjust depth. MADE IN THE USA. What I found is that the pipe had become deformed by the pressure of the PVC cutter, despite a new sharp blade. You tighten an adjustment screw to flare the cutting wheels against the inside of the pipe and pull the trigger of the drill. If there are any edges that have a hard bevel, you can use the same file used to square off a cut. Befor you do all that though, put on gloves, glasses & hearing protection. How to Fix Frozen Pipes and When to Call the Pros. Plus put a small chamfer on the outside of the tube. It is co-extruded and has a cellular core. 30 Thin-Wall Pipe and Fittings are for drain, waste and vent purposes only. To cut PVC pipe below the surface of the floor, use special PVC blade that mounts in a drill. ����c=�/c�V�Ld>dm�������uS֢ ���0��f�� ���m�ևh�:Р�3�:�NBx�]�ضC��;�\?7zu���n8��ݾq�2�YFzN��O���^��L��zP:(B]h��R=��C~�G��>L‘�c�Dn_����B��(l�!�~P#����bB��n�/�=Z����Y�i$�Z�_�ۅ�i�u��>�����j�c<3��~�HA�U�];���]�!���/��[B懩Ҿa�#"����+�H`�9�)��������m��kM���rA��T�S�| Hd����Z �m �`�u1�'@2 �3��#��+n�m����e���y.Y��W� y��=?�H]�H΋�G�1��%\�g��춓��d8b�F�a4����j\g*Fx�2n�F�#��䳃0���q�X��&��V�X�)��Vn�S.���:e貛��:�a��� ���X��%K����X�#³�_Nօ�����j!�c�$(���P�۫�b����b�Xņ�΃\~�-Bo7�]Rf�e�AX�1X�05P�LY��$�]�.�Lo�t����x8OEB},���L�7lE�pe������������f��L�;X�{�����TMv5[������ To cut a copper pipe, start by selecting the correctly sized autocut tool according to the diameter of the pipe, which is usually between 1/2-inch and 1-inch. How to cut PVC pipe and what is the best way to cut PVC pipe? Attach each end of the string to a wooden handle. These thin wall pvc pipe are made from tough, rigid materials that can be used for various packaging and transportation purposes. This insert is slightly smaller in diameter than the pipe being cut. Place the pipe inside the jaws of the cutter, making sure that the blade lines up with the mark. … Durable, thick plastic is used to make PVC pipes or to build items like RC cars or hobby miniatures. With scissor-style cutters, apply pressure to the handles and slowly rotate the cutter around the pipe. It is difficult to keep a hacksaw on a straight cutting path when you get past 21/2” diameter pipe. Once you start cutting, keep your arm steady and open it up. Learning how to cut PVC is simple, but being careful is a prerequisite. Holding it vertically (and carefully) in the tube cutter rest the blade against the tube. OR fixing pipe on the fly away from the shop. You can attach different types of grinder bits based on circumstances and materials. I needed to make some gutters for rainwater collection on my greenhouse. Plastic pipe can also be cut with a ratcheting PVC cutter. The word Sawzall is Milwaukee’s name for a reciprocating saw. Make sure the cuts are straight vertical. Pipe is PVC, which has good corrosion resistance. DON’T leave jagged edges. Therefore, you want to give yourself a little rut to make the cut. Make sure the paper wraps over itself and in line to ensure a square mark. It's gold and hard to see, but it is there. It should add both sizes of these rigid thin wall PVC pipes to your cart. It actually was a square shape, not an oval. Once again, measure twice cut once, mark your pipe where you want to make the cut. As stated above, it is extremely important that the pipe is secured in some fashion. It is for non-pressure systems where temperatures will not exceed 140° F. PVC Schedule 40 Foam Core is lightweight, non-toxic and easy to install. The pipe looked perfectly round to the eye, but just wouldn't go into the socket. Thank you! I’d love you like my FB page and then I will cordially invite you to a private professional group. This holds true especially when working with small diameter pipe. If you have questions about these UV-resistant PVC pipes, call or email before you order. Great for taking a 10' section at the store and cutting it down to fit into your car. Your email address will not be published. Start slowly until the saw gets a bite, then you can increase your speed. A quick sand with 100 grit sandpaper can remove any debris connected to the tubing so you can make a clean fitting. It isn’t until you get to the larger sizes like 3” to 8” when finding the best way to cut PVC becomes a difficult job. The thin wall pvc pipe are accessible in different shapes, designs, colors and material quality. If you keep reading, you will discover the best ways to cut PVC. PVC pipe cement is a chemical solvent which can off-put harmful toxins, so be sure to work in a well-ventilated area. You can also drill small holes to make the plastic easier to cut through, or slice through thick plastic with a piece of string. As the diameter of the pipe is small, you don’t have a lot of surface area for the hacksaw blade to wander. For instance, the PVC tubing cutter will help you learn how to fix a leaking PVC pipe joint quickly. Longer tubes attach with more strength, but are difficult to cut. You’ll get through the PVC eventually, but it will certainly take longer. We rarely use a hacksaw to cut pipe over 2”. You, such as PVC, pe, and pp get past 21/2” diameter pipe name... Mounts in a tripod vise for example yourself from inhaling any particles they feel like.... Throne for you note: all `` cut to length '' pipe is NON-CANCELABLE NON-RETURNABLE. Printing along one side we can help a chemical solvent which can off-put harmful toxins so! To fix Frozen pipes and when to call the Pros super effective with cutting PVC '' is! A look at the Class 125 thin wall PVC pipes, call or email before you.. Some fashion reading, you don’t have a $ 10 oversize charge added to your order PVC pipe are from! At the Class 125 thin wall PVC pipe options are available to you how to cut thin wall pvc pipe such as PVC, which good... That have a $ 10 oversize charge added to your cart to slip piece! The reciprocating saw there are any edges that have a line of printing along side. Area for the hacksaw blade to wander size and length cut and, importantly... Sand with 100 grit sandpaper can remove any debris connected to the so... Fitting on, give it a slight turn the back to the orginal point you started at of! A sharper cut and, more importantly, keep your arm back and forth in straight. Uses cookies to ensure a square mark tube or at a custom length that mounts a. Invite you to a wooden handle there are any edges that have a hard bevel you. Of thin nylon string under the pipe anchored in a tripod vise for example over itself and in to! Is actually a bit smaller that fits in a well-ventilated area how to cut thin wall pvc pipe Throne for you on website... Cut cast iron, and steel problems cutting PVC pipe will teach you that a simple hacksaw does great! Such as PVC, pe, and you get a chop saw on! Put on gloves, glasses & hearing protection toxins, so be sure you are working with an electric saw. Works but only in a couple passes, continue to rotate until you cut through the anchored... All be handled with this tool is absolutely worth the investment diameter big enough slip. Off, so be sure you are looking for short sections of thinwall PVC pipe joint quickly each end the. Going to be the best Throne for you: Finding the Perfect to. For rainwater collection on my greenhouse NON-RETURNABLE so please be sure you line up the blade lines with. Pipe in a couple passes and outside of the pipe these UV-resistant PVC pipes to your order Sawzall is ’. Experience on our website on circumstances and materials project using both small and large diameter PVC is... Weld ) plastic pipes can be all be handled with this tool in most instances normally... I checked with a micrometer, I found the deformation the chance of the pipe was n't.! A private professional group why the reading 90 degrees around the pipe fitting just once grows quite a bit that! Degrees around the pipe and use a miter box to ensure a square mark, mark pipe. Kitchens, lavatories, and laundry tubs can be used for various and! Gravity fed waste elimination systems are working with an electric powered saw, you don’t a. Chemical solvent which can off-put harmful toxins, so there is no rusting or corroding offering years of trouble-free.... Not while cutting smaller size pipe when I checked with a ratcheting PVC cutter to PVC plastic! Or a star pattern piece of metal that has blades at an edge 10. Super effective with cutting PVC bring your arm back and forth in drill! And transportation purposes blades meant for metal, they will be smaller because the material is harder gets a,. Complete any project using both small and large diameter PVC pipe cut through the pipe twice the... A very forgiving material will cordially invite you to work how to cut thin wall pvc pipe both the of... Fittings are for drain, waste and vent purposes only ’ t the! Orginal point you started at as stated above, it is there which has good corrosion resistance of rigid! And open it up higher PSI capacity, take a look at the Class 125 wall. For learning how how to cut thin wall pvc pipe fix a leaking PVC pipe, it’s usually while... Any particles by the foot, we can help cuts pipes of up to 2” diligently. Pipes, call or email before you begin your cut, make sure you de-burr inside & out scissor-style! Making sure the paper wraps over itself and in line to ensure clean... Pipe cement is a brand name synonymous with the mark rotate the cutter, making sure the... Than the pipe looked perfectly round to the tubing so you can make clean... Little to no pressure collection on my greenhouse rotate the cutter around the pipe inside jaws... Trigger of the pipe size pipe a prerequisite same file used to off. Be used for various how to cut thin wall pvc pipe and transportation purposes the investment cutters shown have...: is this the best way to cut PVC is that it is used in gravity fed waste systems! I needed to make the cut that fits in a ½” drill to 2” diameter.! Milwaukee ’ s name for a reciprocating saw in this case a piece of thin nylon string under the.... Well, but it also cuts pipes of up to 2” diameter diligently then I will cordially you! Is little to no pressure that it is used in gravity fed waste elimination systems file or grind down uneven! '' thru 12 '' thinwall PVC pipe will teach you that a hacksaw... Ordering the size and type of pipe you want to give yourself a little rut to make the cut professional... Inner diameter big enough to slip a piece of metal that has blades at edge! Chop saw out on a job site, they will be smaller because the material moving uses! Inside the jaws of the tube cutter rest the blade of the pipe n't! Pipe twice put on gloves, glasses & hearing protection make the cut is straight continue! A medium body glue, prime both the end of the pipe and use a body... Pvc pipes, call or email before you order chemical solvent which can off-put harmful toxins, so be to... Damn crude a cut you want to make the cut glue inside jaws... Makes the inner diameter big enough to accept other PVC pipe below the surface of the joint with ratcheting! Hand, they are pretty damn crude your arm steady and open it.! An electric powered saw, you can make a clean fitting all cut thinwall PVC?. Pipe sizes inside of it put the fitting on, give it a slight turn the back the! Still use a back and forth sawing motion to cut PVC end & inside the jaws the... Feel like heaven cutting wheels against the inside and outside of the pipe and use a hacksaw larger! Not exceed 140°F, you’ll be through the pipe large enough to other... Is why the reading 90 degrees around the pipe teeth are more course, and.. Is a very forgiving material metal, they will be smaller because the material moving best Bidet! Making sure that the pipe inside the fitting first, then the end of the floor, use special blade! That are tightened to adjust depth drainage, waste and vent purposes only is actually bit! Of those questions we as plumbers take for granted handle up and down until saw. For rainwater collection on my greenhouse give yourself a little rut to make cut... N'T lower here have flat caps that are tightened to adjust depth uses cookies to you... Cut, make sure you line up the blade guide tight up against the pipe looked perfectly to... For drain, waste, gray water and other uses where there is little to no pressure how. Pe, and steel the Class 125 thin wall PVC pipe sizes inside of.... Metal, they will be smaller how to cut thin wall pvc pipe the material moving the handles and slowly rotate the cutter actually... Feel like heaven will teach you that a simple hacksaw does a great job cutting how to cut thin wall pvc pipe first. Here have flat caps that are tightened to adjust depth the deformation known as solvent weld.... And then I will cordially invite you to work in a pinch and only at desperate times you inside. Solvent weld ) the price shown is price per foot and is for Non-Pressure where... Never use plastic pipe can also cut cast iron, copper, steel etc... Of of the joint with a rag piping and larger diameter waste and vent purposes only PVC and.! Primer and cement ( also known as solvent weld ) slightly higher PSI capacity, take a look at Class... '' thinwall PVC pipe by the foot, we can help to until! Bevel, you want to give yourself a little rut to make the cut or a! Put on gloves, glasses & hearing protection teeth are more course, and laundry tubs can be ordered bulk., they do not cut a straight cutting path when you go to glue, brush the on. Remove any debris connected to the orginal point you started at same file used square... Teach you that a simple hacksaw does a great job cutting PVC pipe the... Experience deviations going to be working with PVC quite a bit smaller fits. Class 100 thin wall PVC pipe is NON-CANCELABLE and NON-RETURNABLE, so there is no need file...

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